[Kaze.YonGMinG]

Without religions there are no foundational truths and laws we can follow. Without religion there is no guidelines to right or wrong. Without religion worldviews will be totally different in everyone walking this earth. What do you think?

[sweetlemon]

You are speaking as if atheists are completely amoral and unscrupulous. They are not. One does not need to subscribe to a religion to have good moral values.

[Kaze.YonGMinG]

do you realize atheism is a set of beliefs therefore a religion?

[Squirrel<3Nuts]

Do you realise that in the past, how many innocent ladies was labelled as witches & burned because of "religion"?

[opuktun]

Originally Posted by Kaze.YonGMinG

Without religions there are no foundational truths and laws we can follow. Without religion there is no guidelines to right or wrong. Without religion worldviews will be totally different in everyone walking this earth. What do you think?

I believe that religion comes after fundamental truth and laws.

Before human becomes civilized, we are nothing but animals and in the biological sense, we are still animals at the present age. Do cats, dogs, lions or tigers have religion? According to my human understanding, probably not. But are there laws restricting these animals? Yes, surprisingly.

How many times do you see animals of the same family (e.g. between biological parents and children) attacking and killing each other? In exceptional cases. In this sense, I think the law of evolution put forth by Darwin best describe this phenomenon. Animals do not indiscriminately kill each other in order to ensure continued survival of their species.

The evolution of religion is what I hypothesized as the work after civilization. The complicated human minds trying to rationalize this world has put forth ideas such as philosophy, science and religion. I think the ultimate question is always, "why do we exist?" Some scientists attribute the creation of life as a marriage between electrical charges and inorganic materials. Some fanatics in religion claim it as a miracle, which is true in a certain sense. The creation of life is almost a statistical improbability in random situation. In the absence of religion, in the absence of human beings, I think the fundamental laws such as the earth rotating around the sun still stays. To further add on, laws are simply theoretical concepts. They exist because mankind tries to rationalize with mother nature.

The second statement states that without religion, we do not have guidelines as to what is right or wrong. However, I would like to raise an example of the Confucius system. If we define religion as the involvement of a supernatural power, then the Confucius system would be a fine counter example as it does not involve the "supernatural power up there".

The final statement states the involvement of religion in an individual's world view. I cannot deny this. However, it is not the only factor. It is obvious that the environment in which an individual is brought up affects his principles of living and therefore his world view. Religion is simply a part of this environment.

[Kaze.YonGMinG]

Originally Posted by Squirrel<3Nuts

Do you realise that in the past, how many innocent ladies was labelled as witches & burned because of "religion"?

nothing wrong with religion and the core teaching but the insanity of humans. islamic extremist is a good example. i don't know if islam teaches their followers to go kill people who tries to convert.

Kaze.YonGMinG added 25 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by opuktun

I believe that religion comes after fundamental truth and laws.

Before human becomes civilized, we are nothing but animals and in the biological sense, we are still animals at the present age. Do cats, dogs, lions or tigers have religion? According to my human understanding, probably not. But are there laws restricting these animals? Yes, surprisingly.

A couple of religions claims God created man and man knows God since the beginning of creation. And interestingly. Whoever believes in the bible knows that Adam has given names to all this animals including how they should act and behave and so on. This laws are created by someone. There was no uncivilized ape-man according to the bible we're basically intelligent beings to being with.

How many times do you see animals of the same family (e.g. between biological parents and children) attacking and killing each other? In exceptional cases. In this sense, I think the law of evolution put forth by Darwin best describe this phenomenon. Animals do not indiscriminately kill each other in order to ensure continued survival of their species.

Many animals have the tendency to eat their kids. If you have hamsters you will know this happens. Female spiders basically eat their partners after mating. Humans too, have the tendency to bully the weak. Look at how the rich in Indonesia become super rich and the poor extremely poor. Look at how India has 200 millions of untouchables due to their religion. How can religion not play an important role in deciding which direction a nation move?

The evolution of religion is what I hypothesized as the work after civilization. The complicated human minds trying to rationalize this world has put forth ideas such as philosophy, science and religion. I think the ultimate question is always, "why do we exist?" Some scientists attribute the creation of life as a marriage between electrical charges and inorganic materials. Some fanatics in religion claim it as a miracle, which is true in a certain sense. The creation of life is almost a statistical improbability in random situation. In the absence of religion, in the absence of human beings, I think the fundamental laws such as the earth rotating around the sun still stays. To further add on, laws are simply theoretical concepts. They exist because mankind tries to rationalize with mother nature.

Laws is a set of rules agreed upon. Legal systems elaborate rights and responsibilities in a variety of ways. Guideline to set this laws? I kinda wonder where all this came about. Maybe its time to do some reading.

The second statement states that without religion, we do not have guidelines as to what is right or wrong. However, I would like to raise an example of the Confucius system. If we define religion as the involvement of a supernatural power, then the Confucius system would be a fine counter example as it does not involve the "supernatural power up there".

Confucianism. Not Confucius system. I was exposed to this to a certain degree and as a matter of fact. Many attributes common among religions—such as ancestor worship, ritual, and sacrifice—apply to the practice of Confucianism. So does it involve supernatural powers now? It does in some sense. He's a wise man and moral teacher but he has been soaked in Chinese traditions and cultures. His beliefs are affected by religious teachings as well. In fact he is being worship as a god in Taoism.


The final statement states the involvement of religion in an individual's world view. I cannot deny this. However, it is not the only factor. It is obvious that the environment in which an individual is brought up affects his principles of living and therefore his world view. Religion is simply a part of this environment.

Religion can pretty much set the entire environment like it did in India. It is not part of this environment but it shapes it.

I hope this helps in a way. o.o

[opuktun]

* d e l e t e d *

[bishop99]

Originally Posted by Kaze.YonGMinG

nothing wrong with religion and the core teaching but the insanity of humans. islamic extremist is a good example. i don't know if islam teaches their followers to go kill people who tries to convert.

Kaze.YonGMinG added 25 Minutes and 23 Seconds later...

I hope this helps in a way. o.o

I'm sorry to say.. but I think you got the wrong information about Islam extremist and its religion. do kindly be mindful of your statements about any religions. I have experienced some religious classes by my ex churches that condemns other religions and spreads false information. just be careful of it please. you're threading on dangerous grounds here.

with regards to the rest of your post. it's subjective regardless. though i do find a few areas which seems rather unbalanced and geared towards your choice of religion.

A quick note with regards to the 'untouchable' caste. I would beg to differ linking it to religion but more of a social status created by society. and for me. similar to the creation of social status of christians who forbids social interaction with other races/religious beliefs. however lucky for me to have seen it happen. it was kept to the minimal and often not followed. oh.. and if i recall (might be mistaken) there were mentioned of gentiles in the bible which means on-Israelite's or people of other nations. and they too were excluded from many social aspects and benefits i believe.

Animals - laws of nature, the strongest survive. its the balance of nature. that does not mean animals are the lesser being.

Practicing old Pagan rituals may seem odd in today's times. however it was a common practice of ancient times. along with the fact that many of our current religions has its own accepted practice which were somewhat taken from old pagan rituals. yes. that includes todays' form of practices. trace back your religion's rituals and you'll soon realize they were lifted off from old rituals. just modified along with times. hence my take. you shouldnt just based it on the peer pressured applied from your peers in church to dismiss other practices.

I will not deny that religion and politics have to go hand in hand. such as the way it is we have many different views to work with. each should have a fair share in contributing. however a fair view and balanced understanding will go a long way.

though i do have to admit. if i had a choice. i would not like religion to affect the creation of laws and politics. but hey. they have been placed together for the longest of time. to try to create a as fair and balanced fairness to all. of course if that dont happen. extremist pops up. and people resist.

Cheers!

[Kaze.YonGMinG]

Originally Posted by bishop99

I'm sorry to say.. but I think you got the wrong information about Islam extremist and its religion. do kindly be mindful of your statements about any religions. I have experienced some religious classes by my ex churches that condemns other religions and spreads false information. just be careful of it please. you're threading on dangerous grounds here.

My church doesn't hold classes to condemn religions. It was first hand sharing from pastor that came from India that face prosecution. People getting stoned to death for their conversion. Houses being burnt down. You don't see that happening in Singapore but doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

with regards to the rest of your post. it's subjective regardless. though i do find a few areas which seems rather unbalanced and geared towards your choice of religion.

Creation is the same as long as the OT is involved. Jewish believes in the same OT. Muslims have pretty much the same thing. If this is what you are wondering about. I'm only a 7 month christian. There might be errors in what's said here but I've tried my best to put it in the best light I can. It's a common truth shared between a few religions. Am I mistaken here?

A quick note with regards to the 'untouchable' caste. I would beg to differ linking it to religion but more of a social status created by society. and for me. similar to the creation of social status of christians who forbids social interaction with other races/religious beliefs. however lucky for me to have seen it happen. it was kept to the minimal and often not followed. oh.. and if i recall (might be mistaken) there were mentioned of gentiles in the bible which means on-Israelite's or people of other nations. and they too were excluded from many social aspects and benefits i believe.

Which weird church forbids forbids social interaction with other races/religion? You gotta stop attending that if those churches still exist because it is written.
Mark 16:15
He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.
If we're not suppose to interact... how are you going to preach?

There is cast system in the OT and I believe you're right. Samaritans are considered lesser privilege in those times. But I believe most Christians today are considered NT Christians and we're all equal in God's eyes. No one is made out of the dust at God's feet or out of something from his chest. We're all made by him. Read up on their religious cast system to get a better idea.

Animals - laws of nature, the strongest survive. its the balance of nature. that does not mean animals are the lesser being.

how did this get in here? o.o

Practicing old Pagan rituals may seem odd in today's times. however it was a common practice of ancient times. along with the fact that many of our current religions has its own accepted practice which were somewhat taken from old pagan rituals. yes. that includes todays' form of practices. trace back your religion's rituals and you'll soon realize they were lifted off from old rituals. just modified along with times. hence my take. you shouldnt just based it on the peer pressured applied from your peers in church to dismiss other practices.

Again. My church doesn't spend time giving peer pressure what so ever. Everything written is from my own exposure. I was in a environment that requires me to study Confucianism. Am I wrong to point things out?
Rituals like Mourning for 3 years after our parents die comes from Confucianism where we are not suppose to celebrate, get married and stuff like that. Where exactly is it? Di Zhi Gui. You don't seem to have enough exposure to things outside and you seem think that all churches are pressuring us to do things? It's kinda weird.

[shypineapple]

no way, only when the world comes an end. meaning Armageddon will there be a possibilities that might happen.
Yes, meaning you, me & everyone else vanish from the face of this earth we call home.

[Kaze.YonGMinG]

then we can go back to our real home :p

[bishop99]

@Kaze.YonGMinG

nope. not stating you're wrong. just cautioning you on being over zealous.
As for not worldly enough and your pastor. I would say. good for him. however i will remain a skeptic. and yes. I am quite aware of the atrocities of men. I am sure it would be the very same thing i walk outside of the church and preach of another religion. However, try not to assume i have never stepped out of the comforts of this island.

I chose not to name the churches I went to then. however it is good enough for me to realize. extremism exist in all aspect regardless. even if it is just done in the need to feel special.

as for many part of the rest of your post. I shall not follow up on it as you've gone very defensive. I guess it's fine being that it would probably be viewed as an attack on your faith. I know been there and done that.

I'll leave you to assume that I have not done and readings or does not keep an eye on the unpublished news of the world. however, yes. if you feel so. i will not argue on this matter.. i'd stick with the topic.

however, just keep caution of your views of other races/religions and beliefs. there are and will always be people with different views. learn to accept it with an open mind instead of insisting your 7 month experience of your belief is the only way.

Cheers!

[Uyoku]

But if you're not in one, you wont get sin.
Basically i dont get into my religion, but still am good boy.
No body preach me and i did no research in crimes, law and etc.

To me it's still dependent on individual to be good or bad. Additionally, one who is in religion can still do grave mistakes like killing and robbing.

[maximillionz]

Well, TS congrats! You've managed to spot one of the General Paper question for essay, which is essential your question, how far should religion influence political decisions?

[Senator1]

religion is created as a form of social control

[mahalarp]

You only 7 month Christian and u know many many about christian things .
Very good.

[Kaze.YonGMinG]

Originally Posted by bishop99

@Kaze.YonGMinG

however, just keep caution of your views of other races/religions and beliefs. there are and will always be people with different views. learn to accept it with an open mind instead of insisting your 7 month experience of your belief is the only way.

Cheers!

I'm a brought up in a Taoism/Buddhism traditional family for 24 years and I've came across many things besides what is inside the christian world. My meaning of you lacking exposure is your knowledge in things like Buddhism and Confucianism. I've grew up a tradition that was soaked up with all this things that puts me in a proper position to comment. I believe so at the very least. Sorry if it has offended you

Kaze.YonGMinG added 0 Minutes and 37 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by mahalarp

You only 7 month Christian and u know many many about christian things .
Very good.

thank you

Kaze.YonGMinG added 6 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Senator1

religion is created as a form of social control

I picked up something from the internet regarding this.

In order for Religion to be used as control, there ought to be some better examples. If I were to write a “Bible,” and use it for control, I would change (or completely leave out) some of it’s stories.
Daniel’s Challenge - Daniel 6

Most everyone has heard of Daniel and the Lion’s Den. But how many of us have really thought about it?
Here is a little background.

Daniel served under King Darius. Daniel was faithful to God and King Darius. Others were jealous of Daniel and made a plan to get rid of him. They tricked DaniellionKing Darius into making a law so that is was illegal to pray to any god or man (except for the king).

Daniel was faithful to God and was forced to be defiant to King Darius. His punishment was to be thrown into the Lion’s Den.
Jesus’ Challenge

The Scribes and Pharisees were more than religious leaders. They had much political clout. King Herod sought them for information. (Matthew 2:4) They sought Pontius Pilate for a favor. (Matthew 27:1-2) These were not just any ordinary leaders, they had direct access to some of the lands highest kings. Yet Jesus stood up to them and rebuked them.

So He got into a boat, crossed over, and came to His own city. Then behold, they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, be of good cheer; your sins are forgiven you.”
And at once some of the scribes said within themselves, “This Man blasphemes!”
But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said, “Why do you think evil in your hearts? For which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins” —then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” And he arose and departed to his house.
Now when the multitudes saw it, they marveled and glorified God, who had given such power to men.

Matthew 9:1-8

I cannot imagine a king wanting this kind of “Social Control” in his kingdom. It was like a slap in the face to the Scribes.

Then the scribes and Pharisees who were from Jerusalem came to Jesus, saying, “Why do Your disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat bread.”
He answered and said to them, “Why do you also transgress the commandment of God because of your tradition? For God commanded, saying, ‘Honor your father and your mother’; and, ‘He who curses father or mother, let him be put to death.’ But you say, ‘Whoever says to his father or mother, “Whatever profit you might have received from me is a gift to God”— then he need not honor his father or mother.’ Thus you have made the commandment of God of no effect by your tradition. Hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy about you, saying:
‘ These people draw near to Me with their mouth,
And honor Me with their lips,
But their heart is far from Me.
And in vain they worship Me,
Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
When He had called the multitude to Himself, He said to them, “Hear and understand: Not what goes into the mouth defiles a man; but what comes out of the mouth, this defiles a man.”
Then His disciples came and said to Him, “Do You know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?”

Matthew 15:1-12

I cannot imagine a king wanting this sort of thing said about the Religion that was established for the purpose of “control.” last_supper_davinciJesus stood up against the Scribes and Pharisees on many occasions. These were the same men whom had much political clout with the reigning king. In fact, when Jesus became too much for them to handle, they turned to the king for help getting rid of their problem.

There are many more cases where Jesus confronted the Scribes and Pharisees. You can research them at BibleGateway.com

About Social Control

It is not logical for the Bible to be created by man to control the masses. If a King wanted to establish control, then the above stories would challenge the very control it establishes.

Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.

Jesus
Matthew 12:25

A house divided against itself cannot stand…

Abraham Lincoln
June 16, 1858

Social control using Christianity? I fear not.

Kaze.YonGMinG added 8 Minutes and 11 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by maximillionz

Well, TS congrats! You've managed to spot one of the General Paper question for essay, which is essential your question, how far should religion influence political decisions?

Hahaha. Sorry I'm not an 'A' level student. Too old for that

Kaze.YonGMinG added 13 Minutes and 47 Seconds later...

Originally Posted by Uyoku

But if you're not in one, you wont get sin.
Basically i dont get into my religion, but still am good boy.
No body preach me and i did no research in crimes, law and etc.

To me it's still dependent on individual to be good or bad. Additionally, one who is in religion can still do grave mistakes like killing and robbing.

Take religious meanings out of Sin and it becomes just this.
Sin - any reprehensible or regrettable action, behavior, lapse, etc.; great fault or offense: It's a sin to waste time.

Are you a perfect person without a religion? Can you live your life without a single regret or lapse in behavior or make mistakes if you have no religion? If not. You are sinful.

But yes. I agree with you good or evil depends on individuals. Humans are given the freedom to choose thankfully and how we take good teachings from our parents or from the bible and put it to you will make a big difference in the outcome.

[sweetlemon]

Originally Posted by Kaze.YonGMinG

do you realize atheism is a set of beliefs therefore a religion?

A religion is a system of human thought which usually includes a set of narratives, symbols, beliefs and practices that give meaning to the practitioner's experiences of life through reference to a higher power, deity or deities, or ultimate truth.[1] Religion is commonly identified by the practitioner's prayer, ritual, meditation, music and art, among other things, but more generally is interwoven with society and politics. It may focus on specific supernatural, metaphysical, and moral claims about reality (the cosmos and human nature) which may yield a set of religious laws, ethics, and a particular lifestyle. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and religious experience.

taken from wikipedia.
To summarize, atheism is the rejection of religion.

Personal beliefs, moral guidelines etc are not considered as a religion. Those are principles/philosophies of life. The distinction is that this set of principles originates from logic/experiences rather than any holy scripture that involves faith in a higher being.


As for the earlier point about Islam extremists, please do not generalize. Such comments border are approaching sedition and extremely unfair to the millions of peaceful Muslims out there. In those extreme cases, it is the subversive "preachers" who twist the Quran to fit their purposes. The actual Quran is essentially peaceful, and the principal messages does not differ that much from the Bible or Torah. I would suggest that the person go read up on the Crusader Wars and the Inquisition. Christianity had its violent past too.

[Senator1]

Recommended to watch this

You Tube

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[bishop99]

Originally Posted by Kaze.YonGMinG

I'm a brought up in a Taoism/Buddhism traditional family for 24 years and I've came across many things besides what is inside the christian world. My meaning of you lacking exposure is your knowledge in things like Buddhism and Confucianism. I've grew up a tradition that was soaked up with all this things that puts me in a proper position to comment. I believe so at the very least. Sorry if it has offended you

.

Not taking offense to begin with. however it's not very nice to be putting others down based on assumptions with the believe that you're in prime position to comment. Well. i guess if you insist that you know better. then so be it. I'll stick to being objective here. you can carry on if you like. thanks.

@senator1 - i watched parts of it. i thought it's pretty good though deep. and i lost the videos again. bleah.

@Sweetlemon - agreed with you. you know how to put it better then i do. hahaa.

Cheers!