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Old 5th August 2007, 09:40 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Dzi Thread

Anyone knows about Dzi aka 天珠?

Its made of Agate material (a type of crystal), and the patterns are printed on for specific representations and powers.

But i wonder does beads that is been manufactured has such powers.

http://dzibeads.blogspot.com/ for more info

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Old 5th August 2007, 10:32 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

they are just another type of crystals or semi prcious stones,and all along we knew such itme shave energies that are able to help pple,who would wanna pay so much for one piece(a lot of them costs more than diamonds),i rather pay for a diamond instead

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Old 6th August 2007, 06:50 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

i got one for my wraist before... heh not trying to be bias or what but then i feel that wearing it is very tiring for me. i remember i had it on the left hand and my muscles on the upper arm felt very tired. it feels like theres alot of lactic acid in it.


a friend who knows alot bout such spiritual stuffs saw me and he told me he can tell that i wear until very uncomfortable. we went to check the Dzi and then he said that the chant was wrong.

wa piang. RM300 gone....:cry3:

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Old 6th August 2007, 05:48 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by killtheblackkat
i got one for my wraist before... heh not trying to be bias or what but then i feel that wearing it is very tiring for me. i remember i had it on the left hand and my muscles on the upper arm felt very tired. it feels like theres alot of lactic acid in it.


a friend who knows alot bout such spiritual stuffs saw me and he told me he can tell that i wear until very uncomfortable. we went to check the Dzi and then he said that the chant was wrong.

wa piang. RM300 gone....:cry3:

wah piang?rm300?
so ex ah?
you really rich leh...kekekeke

crystals have their in built form of energy from the thousands or even millions of years that they were created and form,thats why whenever anybody purchase any crystals its best to "cleanse" it with raw mineral salt water and sun it to cleanse it to get the negative energy away than best is to get somebody to chant it to bless it all over again

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Old 6th August 2007, 07:49 PM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

i want to buy leh. but where and how to chant it?

cleansing can be done by using salt water and sunning it?

then how you noe the chant is wrong or rite?

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Old 6th August 2007, 08:11 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by restless
i want to buy leh. but where and how to chant it?

cleansing can be done by using salt water and sunning it?

then how you noe the chant is wrong or rite?

whether u get the chant right or wrong depends on the person who is doing it for you.

dzi beads are not cheap,why pay hundreds or even thousands or even tens of thousands of dollars to get a piece of stone,you are better off with your birthstone which is given to you on which month u are born,u can get the birthstone chart on the internet unless you are into more detailed stuff like under which element you are born under than get a suitable piece of stone for it.

if not just normal cleansing with raw mineral salt and water and sunning it to get rid of negative energy and absorbing positive energy from the sun

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Old 6th August 2007, 11:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by Storm_Pyro
wah piang?rm300?
so ex ah?
you really rich leh...kekekeke
that time a bit siao mah... buy never thing properly. then my sister whole family also buy. end up wear le she feel more suey. so she oso whole family never wear le lo.

haiz this kind of magnetic force thing really cannot play play. they cost a bomb and you'll never know what the effects it will have on you.

best is dont wear anything. but if need to bring something along... talisman is always the best:biggrin4:

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Old 6th August 2007, 11:14 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by killtheblackkat
that time a bit siao mah... buy never thing properly. then my sister whole family also buy. end up wear le she feel more suey. so she oso whole family never wear le lo.

haiz this kind of magnetic force thing really cannot play play. they cost a bomb and you'll never know what the effects it will have on you.

best is dont wear anything. but if need to bring something along... talisman is always the best:biggrin4:

talisman also must see what is head what is written in the center and how it ends,also must see how the talisman is being chopped with the seal of authority.most importantly is who writes it,meaning is the medium in trance really possessed by the deity or is it just a show

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Old 9th August 2007, 03:17 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

i found this. [source]

天珠图解说明
[金刚杵]: 招福挡煞 趋吉避凶 超凡神圣,图解说明,源自于宗之法器,转化为降伏魔障的标帜。
功德利益:可增强经济能力、财富名利、人格荣誉等之力量的象征。 [观 音]: 观音降临,普渡众生,保佑平安,正面觀音像象徵菩薩慈悲心願力與修持。與觀世音菩薩相感應,可消除疾病障礙 災難,可使財來運通、富貴福氣、心想事成。
[星 辰]: 自然转承,无勇力量,福寿增长。 [息增怀珠]: 浩然正气,降伏魔敌,法力增加。
[大鹏鸟]: 祛除病苦,降伏魔乱,息灾增益。 [五眼闪电]: 五福加持,步步高升,气宇不凡。
[莲师法帽]: 藏传法师,除魔去灾,法力无边。 [二眼佛眼]: 好运连连,祥云瑞气,一切如意。
[六眼金刚杵]:趋吉避凶,六六大顺,福慧倍长。 [佛 眼]: 法力无边,万事如愿,一切圆满。
[三眼佛心]: 三星拱照,福禄寿全,添财增寿。 [山 水]: 靠山临水, 运势不凡,财寿长久。
[八 卦]: 路路畅通,八面来风,成就一切。 [财 神]: 金光普照,财神降临,金银满仓。
[山 形]: 形如靠山,勇往直前,成就所愿 [五 福]: 成就一切,瑞气和祥,姻缘美满。
[佛 手]: 降福众生,祥和安乐,十方圆明。 [黑白珠]: 昼夜交替,阴阳平衡,转危为安。
[三色线珠]: 一世亨通,凡求所愿,皆如人意。 [八宝牌]: 凡求所愿,名利双收,心想事成。
[三十六眼]: 大智增长,财源广进,事事如意。 [龙 眼]: 所求如愿,功德无限,一世亨通。
[如 意]: 心气和顺,大福大贵,如意吉祥,具有萬事如意、瑞氣和祥及姻緣美滿的效能,能令佩戴者不但增福慧,而且事事 變得順境好運。图解说明 梵语阿那律,为说法、讲赞、法会时,持以指挥及护身。
功德利益:亦属铭召法,能提升精神意识!则以呈现出吉祥的意味。 [菩 提]: 觉悟正道,消灾泯难,运转圆满,图解说明,华译为觉道,就是觉悟正道的正果!即自觉觉他的智慧 。
功德利益:可消除七灾八难,则表示一切的好运,即将在些运转…。
[天 地]: 天圆地方,源远流长,百福千祥,,圓者天也,如來的智慧德相。地者方也,眾生之根基。此顆天珠,能實現心願 ,對事業、人際、外交有很好的幫助。图解说明 天者圆也,如来的智慧相。地者方也,众生之根基。
功德利益:能使所有的业力转换成愿力!则是一切心愿实现的开始。 [莲 花]: 出污不染,净化身心,和谐安祥,可使人變得心無雜念、淨化人心及和諧安祥的效能。图解说明 佛说出五浊世无所染著之谓!即清净圆满、无碍自在。
功德利益:拥有净化精神意识(灵魂)的作用,可治疗神经衰弱。
[宝 瓶]: 平安出入,敬爱降福,纳财聚宝,這種天珠圖案常出現藏傳佛教的儀式中,象徵永生不朽。在藏人心目中寶瓶天珠 的價值不下於崇高的九眼天珠。相傳擁有寶瓶天珠者,寶瓶天珠會幫助其守財,且會源源不絕,進而助其擁有者達 成旺財的願望。
图解说明:佛说功德圆满福慧具全之谓!即是密宗所有法统的继承。
功德利益:摄集息灾、增益、敬爱、降伏、铭如五大法门之效应。 [虎 牙]: 驱邪避凶,保佑平安,吉祥富贵,图解说明,三角形两端对称、重复排列的图案,可视为法器金刚杵 。

功德利益:仅就人体而言,可以促进心脏及肺脏之循环系统的机能。
[双 寿]: 夫妻和睦,姻缘美满,颐养天年。 [水 纹]: 神妙无比,一世亨通,福乐长久。
[贵 人]: 顶天立地,勇克小人,免除危害,贵人天珠,具有净化人心、广结善缘及逢凶化吉的效能。佩戴者会有贵人扶持, 保一生平安。图解说明 古时,天然灾害繁生无穷,以此为求奋斗的精神寄托。
功德利益:能破除一切业障重罪,具有驱逐恶魔的力量,免除危害。 [日 月]: 阴阳调和,生机勃发,地长天久,阴阳交汇,四季轮回,生机勃发,地久天长。阴阳调和 离苦得乐 步步高升
[万 字]: 佛光普照,财运旺盛,永得安康。 [线 珠]: 路路畅通,一往直前,所求如愿。
[牛 角]: 驱邪避凶,保佑平安,富贵吉祥。 [虎 纹]: 坚忍刚毅,顺气自然,增长智慧。
[寿 珠]: 万病消除,延年益寿,长寿健康。 [法 器]: 降妖伏魔,正法无边,威名远扬,招福擋煞,納吉避凶,密宗法器威力無比。
[日月星]: 阴阳调和,离苦得乐,步步高升。 [金钱钩]: 财源滚滚,丰衣足食,名利双收。
[一 眼]: 光明在前,坚定信念,鸿图大展。显现光明照耀加护戴持者,一切功德圆满如意。
功德利益:对于意志不坚、垂头丧气、缺乏信心之人,获益最大。 [四 眼]: 四苦减轻,福慧显增,威显四方。图解说明 大悲观音、大智文殊、大愿地藏、大行普贤等四大菩萨。
功德利益:戴持之人;能使障碍立除,福慧即增,果道有成
[三 眼]: 三星拱照,财源广进,福禄寿全,是密宗之财神。代表佛之身、口、意圓滿相好一切,可心想事成,並象徵財富不 斷,是一顆能圓滿健康與財富的天珠之一。 宝生佛的图形表征,则表示些珠能生出一切财宝的意思。
功德利益:具有增加财富的效益!即天时、人和、“地利”的象征。  [二 眼]: 比翼连理,双喜临门,事事如意,夫妻和睦、家庭美满、事业成功且智慧增长。西藏天珠是最理想最贵重的护身符 ,更是供佛的最佳圣品,值得收藏供养,永世流传。昼夜(阴阳)交替的现象界,拥有调节转化的作 用。
功德利益:能使思想和行动一致,进而达到理想的目标。
[五 眼]: 五佛灌顶,五路进财,无往不利。图解说明 则表示佛部、莲花部、金钢部、宝生部、羯磨部等五部。
功德利益:令得五佛灌顶、五路进财、五福临门、五子登科……等。 [六 眼]: 滋养调理,消灾除邪,六六大顺。解脱六道之苦和六波罗蜜渐次增长。图解说明 宇宙本体为地、水、火、风、空、识(阴阳)六大所构成。
功德利益:仅就人体而言,可以滋养调理人体机能之生理与心理。
[七 眼]: 得益七佛,大吉大利,一切圆满,圆满一切运势、功名、事业、财富、健康、长壽、姻缘。图解说明 夜空中所见的北斗七星,乃是“药师七佛”之具体表征。
功德利益:掌管一切运势、功名、事业、财富、健康、长寿、姻缘。 [八 眼]: 八佛加持,心想事成,金玉满堂,得八方菩萨的加持,平息八部的伤害,获入正道。图解说明 八吉祥(八宝)之符号!象征福德增上与金玉满堂之义。
功德利益:配戴者常有心想事成的感受,凡有所求,皆能称心如愿。
[九 眼]: 九乘功德,大智增长,声名显扬。图解说明 自然界九大行星之表征,包含宇宙的运行与人类的思维。
功德利益:能使小聪明转化成大智慧,具有升华精神意识的作用力。 [十二眼]: 拥天护地 满足众生 所求皆得,勇猛超群,有求必应。福慧圆满,名声响亮。图解说明 在“药师经”里有十二神将,就是十二生肖(时辰)。
功德利益:能满足众生一切所求;要长寿得长寿,要富饶得富饶…。
[十一眼]: 消灾解危,战胜心魔,无往不利。 [十 眼]: 业障威德,人生得意,十全十美。
[十三眼]: 身心宁静,百事不惧,勇往直前。 [十四眼]: 增长智慧,步步高升,长寿健康。
[十五眼]: 众神加持,保驾护航,成就一切,图解说明 七珍八宝、合计珍宝十五件,为密宗坛城之主要结构机体。
功德利益:能获诸佛菩萨及龙开护法之加持护佑,成就一切事业。 [十六眼]: 十全十美,六六大顺,心想事成。
[十七眼]: 八佛加持,九乘功德,前途无量。 [十八眼]: 人生得意,名利双收,喜乐无穷。
[十九眼]: 吉星拱照,万事皆顺,福寿长久。 [二十一眼]: 法力增加,万事如意,心想事成。

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Old 9th August 2007, 07:41 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by restless
i found this. [source]

天珠图解说明
[金刚杵]: 招福挡煞 趋吉避凶 超凡神圣,图解说明,源自于宗之法器,转化为降伏魔障的标帜。
功德利益:可增强经济能力、财富名利、人格荣誉等之力量的象征。 [观 音]: 观音降临,普渡众生,保佑平安,正面觀音像象徵菩薩慈悲心願力與修持。與觀世音菩薩相感應,可消除疾病障礙 災難,可使財來運通、富貴福氣、心想事成。
[星 辰]: 自然转承,无勇力量,福寿增长。 [息增怀珠]: 浩然正气,降伏魔敌,法力增加。
[大鹏鸟]: 祛除病苦,降伏魔乱,息灾增益。 [五眼闪电]: 五福加持,步步高升,气宇不凡。
[莲师法帽]: 藏传法师,除魔去灾,法力无边。 [二眼佛眼]: 好运连连,祥云瑞气,一切如意。
[六眼金刚杵]:趋吉避凶,六六大顺,福慧倍长。 [佛 眼]: 法力无边,万事如愿,一切圆满。
[三眼佛心]: 三星拱照,福禄寿全,添财增寿。 [山 水]: 靠山临水, 运势不凡,财寿长久。
[八 卦]: 路路畅通,八面来风,成就一切。 [财 神]: 金光普照,财神降临,金银满仓。
[山 形]: 形如靠山,勇往直前,成就所愿 [五 福]: 成就一切,瑞气和祥,姻缘美满。
[佛 手]: 降福众生,祥和安乐,十方圆明。 [黑白珠]: 昼夜交替,阴阳平衡,转危为安。
[三色线珠]: 一世亨通,凡求所愿,皆如人意。 [八宝牌]: 凡求所愿,名利双收,心想事成。
[三十六眼]: 大智增长,财源广进,事事如意。 [龙 眼]: 所求如愿,功德无限,一世亨通。
[如 意]: 心气和顺,大福大贵,如意吉祥,具有萬事如意、瑞氣和祥及姻緣美滿的效能,能令佩戴者不但增福慧,而且事事 變得順境好運。图解说明 梵语阿那律,为说法、讲赞、法会时,持以指挥及护身。
功德利益:亦属铭召法,能提升精神意识!则以呈现出吉祥的意味。 [菩 提]: 觉悟正道,消灾泯难,运转圆满,图解说明,华译为觉道,就是觉悟正道的正果!即自觉觉他的智慧 。
功德利益:可消除七灾八难,则表示一切的好运,即将在些运转…。
[天 地]: 天圆地方,源远流长,百福千祥,,圓者天也,如來的智慧德相。地者方也,眾生之根基。此顆天珠,能實現心願 ,對事業、人際、外交有很好的幫助。图解说明 天者圆也,如来的智慧相。地者方也,众生之根基。
功德利益:能使所有的业力转换成愿力!则是一切心愿实现的开始。 [莲 花]: 出污不染,净化身心,和谐安祥,可使人變得心無雜念、淨化人心及和諧安祥的效能。图解说明 佛说出五浊世无所染著之谓!即清净圆满、无碍自在。
功德利益:拥有净化精神意识(灵魂)的作用,可治疗神经衰弱。
[宝 瓶]: 平安出入,敬爱降福,纳财聚宝,這種天珠圖案常出現藏傳佛教的儀式中,象徵永生不朽。在藏人心目中寶瓶天珠 的價值不下於崇高的九眼天珠。相傳擁有寶瓶天珠者,寶瓶天珠會幫助其守財,且會源源不絕,進而助其擁有者達 成旺財的願望。
图解说明:佛说功德圆满福慧具全之谓!即是密宗所有法统的继承。
功德利益:摄集息灾、增益、敬爱、降伏、铭如五大法门之效应。 [虎 牙]: 驱邪避凶,保佑平安,吉祥富贵,图解说明,三角形两端对称、重复排列的图案,可视为法器金刚杵 。

功德利益:仅就人体而言,可以促进心脏及肺脏之循环系统的机能。
[双 寿]: 夫妻和睦,姻缘美满,颐养天年。 [水 纹]: 神妙无比,一世亨通,福乐长久。
[贵 人]: 顶天立地,勇克小人,免除危害,贵人天珠,具有净化人心、广结善缘及逢凶化吉的效能。佩戴者会有贵人扶持, 保一生平安。图解说明 古时,天然灾害繁生无穷,以此为求奋斗的精神寄托。
功德利益:能破除一切业障重罪,具有驱逐恶魔的力量,免除危害。 [日 月]: 阴阳调和,生机勃发,地长天久,阴阳交汇,四季轮回,生机勃发,地久天长。阴阳调和 离苦得乐 步步高升
[万 字]: 佛光普照,财运旺盛,永得安康。 [线 珠]: 路路畅通,一往直前,所求如愿。
[牛 角]: 驱邪避凶,保佑平安,富贵吉祥。 [虎 纹]: 坚忍刚毅,顺气自然,增长智慧。
[寿 珠]: 万病消除,延年益寿,长寿健康。 [法 器]: 降妖伏魔,正法无边,威名远扬,招福擋煞,納吉避凶,密宗法器威力無比。
[日月星]: 阴阳调和,离苦得乐,步步高升。 [金钱钩]: 财源滚滚,丰衣足食,名利双收。
[一 眼]: 光明在前,坚定信念,鸿图大展。显现光明照耀加护戴持者,一切功德圆满如意。
功德利益:对于意志不坚、垂头丧气、缺乏信心之人,获益最大。 [四 眼]: 四苦减轻,福慧显增,威显四方。图解说明 大悲观音、大智文殊、大愿地藏、大行普贤等四大菩萨。
功德利益:戴持之人;能使障碍立除,福慧即增,果道有成
[三 眼]: 三星拱照,财源广进,福禄寿全,是密宗之财神。代表佛之身、口、意圓滿相好一切,可心想事成,並象徵財富不 斷,是一顆能圓滿健康與財富的天珠之一。 宝生佛的图形表征,则表示些珠能生出一切财宝的意思。
功德利益:具有增加财富的效益!即天时、人和、“地利”的象征。  [二 眼]: 比翼连理,双喜临门,事事如意,夫妻和睦、家庭美满、事业成功且智慧增长。西藏天珠是最理想最贵重的护身符 ,更是供佛的最佳圣品,值得收藏供养,永世流传。昼夜(阴阳)交替的现象界,拥有调节转化的作 用。
功德利益:能使思想和行动一致,进而达到理想的目标。
[五 眼]: 五佛灌顶,五路进财,无往不利。图解说明 则表示佛部、莲花部、金钢部、宝生部、羯磨部等五部。
功德利益:令得五佛灌顶、五路进财、五福临门、五子登科……等。 [六 眼]: 滋养调理,消灾除邪,六六大顺。解脱六道之苦和六波罗蜜渐次增长。图解说明 宇宙本体为地、水、火、风、空、识(阴阳)六大所构成。
功德利益:仅就人体而言,可以滋养调理人体机能之生理与心理。
[七 眼]: 得益七佛,大吉大利,一切圆满,圆满一切运势、功名、事业、财富、健康、长壽、姻缘。图解说明 夜空中所见的北斗七星,乃是“药师七佛”之具体表征。
功德利益:掌管一切运势、功名、事业、财富、健康、长寿、姻缘。 [八 眼]: 八佛加持,心想事成,金玉满堂,得八方菩萨的加持,平息八部的伤害,获入正道。图解说明 八吉祥(八宝)之符号!象征福德增上与金玉满堂之义。
功德利益:配戴者常有心想事成的感受,凡有所求,皆能称心如愿。
[九 眼]: 九乘功德,大智增长,声名显扬。图解说明 自然界九大行星之表征,包含宇宙的运行与人类的思维。
功德利益:能使小聪明转化成大智慧,具有升华精神意识的作用力。 [十二眼]: 拥天护地 满足众生 所求皆得,勇猛超群,有求必应。福慧圆满,名声响亮。图解说明 在“药师经”里有十二神将,就是十二生肖(时辰)。
功德利益:能满足众生一切所求;要长寿得长寿,要富饶得富饶…。
[十一眼]: 消灾解危,战胜心魔,无往不利。 [十 眼]: 业障威德,人生得意,十全十美。
[十三眼]: 身心宁静,百事不惧,勇往直前。 [十四眼]: 增长智慧,步步高升,长寿健康。
[十五眼]: 众神加持,保驾护航,成就一切,图解说明 七珍八宝、合计珍宝十五件,为密宗坛城之主要结构机体。
功德利益:能获诸佛菩萨及龙开护法之加持护佑,成就一切事业。 [十六眼]: 十全十美,六六大顺,心想事成。
[十七眼]: 八佛加持,九乘功德,前途无量。 [十八眼]: 人生得意,名利双收,喜乐无穷。
[十九眼]: 吉星拱照,万事皆顺,福寿长久。 [二十一眼]: 法力增加,万事如意,心想事成。
frankly speaking after reading all the amazing effects of wearing the dzi beads,how many millionaires are there in sg now?(putting aside the rest of the world)since that a lot of pple after the exposure of dzi beads came into light a few years back?

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Old 10th August 2007, 12:45 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by Storm_Pyro
frankly speaking after reading all the amazing effects of wearing the dzi beads,how many millionaires are there in sg now?(putting aside the rest of the world)since that a lot of pple after the exposure of dzi beads came into light a few years back?

ya i tot of that too. coz if its really so powerful, who the hell wans to sell it??

if there's any rich man in this world, those shops selling these things have to be the richest since all the aura of luck is there.

nevertheless, people still buy on believe and such i guess.

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Old 10th August 2007, 03:08 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by restless
ya i tot of that too. coz if its really so powerful, who the hell wans to sell it??

if there's any rich man in this world, those shops selling these things have to be the richest since all the aura of luck is there.

nevertheless, people still buy on believe and such i guess.
:handsup: :handsup: :handsup:

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Old 10th August 2007, 03:44 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

gotta admit that some of the design is really very natural and nice and sometimes i see le i oso wont bother to go care bout whether got chant no chant or not. but then whenever such things happened, i will keep remind myself of the RM300:cry3:

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Old 11th August 2007, 01:21 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by killtheblackkat
gotta admit that some of the design is really very natural and nice and sometimes i see le i oso wont bother to go care bout whether got chant no chant or not. but then whenever such things happened, i will keep remind myself of the RM300:cry3:
hahahahaha...take it as a lesson learnt my dear ...but than again WHAHAHAHAHAKAKAKAKAKAKAKAKA...in hokkien "big vegetable head kena chop"

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Old 11th August 2007, 12:57 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

wa piang, so expensive if buy le. no effect will cry one leh

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Old 11th August 2007, 06:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by alan26
wa piang, so expensive if buy le. no effect will cry one leh
can you understand my pain?!

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Old 11th August 2007, 10:24 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by killtheblackkat
can you understand my pain?!
take it as a lesson learn lor. money still can earn back de.

where is the shop that you bought it? so people here wouldnt go there as well.

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Old 12th August 2007, 03:47 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Re: Dzi Thread

Originally Posted by restless
take it as a lesson learn lor. money still can earn back de.

where is the shop that you bought it? so people here wouldnt go there as well.

actually it dont really matter which shop she goes to dzi beads on the whole are very expensive unless u talk about those pvc plastic ones that is being sold as keychains in pasar malams,no point asking her so that pple dont go to the shop,all shops selling such beads are them at exhorbitant prices....

at the end of the day its just about demand and supply plus marketing strategy also....

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