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Old 23rd November 2015, 04:30 PM   #1 (permalink)
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[Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

See, this here, pisses me off.

Every year, due to the ill-conceived and unjustly small number of places available in local Medical schools, many hundreds of Singapore students (who perform better academically and thus are better qualified than many foreigners who get to study Medicine in their own countries with much larger Med school intakes), many with straight As, are forced to spend a million dollars (with some parents going into serious debt or selling their homes to support their son/daughter's aspirations) to study Medicine overseas.

And most of these Singaporeans do succeed in completing their medical degrees from Universities and medical schools recognized by Singapore Medical Council (SMC). Some of these overseas Med schools and Universities are even more reputable and internationally recognized than local Med schools.

So this proves it's not truly a matter of prudently restricting local Med school student intake for the sake of quality control, but more actually a matter of ill-conceived and maladjusted education policies resulting in overly small local Med school intakes, resulting in a critical shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, in turn resulting in thousands of foreigners (some with dubious academic performance, medical training and professional qualifications) being imported in to meet Singapore's needs.

How would you feel if you were one of many such hundreds of Singaporeans every year, perform better (eg. straight As) than many of the foreigners imported in to meet the shortage, and thus feel you're more deserving but are nonetheless turned away from local Med schools, only because of the overly small intake of students for local Med schools.

Which leaves you with 2 choices : either struggle to borrow a million dollars to receive a Medical school education overseas recognized by SMC, or give up on your lifelong aspirations to serve society as a doctor. While every year, you see/hear the local media announce, "Shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, foreign doctors imported in to meet Singapore's needs".


S'pore sees a rise in foreign doctors

More than a quarter of the doctors in the public healthcare sector are foreigners.

At the end of last year, public hospitals and polyclinics had more than 2,100 foreign doctors in their employ and the number continues to grow as Singapore faces a shortage of trained medical staff.

Full article :
http://mypaper.sg/top-stories/spore-...ctors-20151123

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Old 23rd November 2015, 08:05 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

I compare it with a high number of foreigners being accountants/auditors here...

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Old 24th November 2015, 12:09 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

It is much cheaper to employ a foreign trained doctor than to train someone starting from medical school.

Objectively speaking, it is probably wiser to limit med school intake and then employ foreign doctors to fill in the shortage than to have too many medical schools, producing too many junior doctors and not having enough training positions e.g. housemanship, specialisation and even jobs for them.

Subjectively speaking, healthcare services *should* never be about chasing numbers and hitting KPIs. It *should* always be about the patients. Foreign doctors may not be able to communicate fluently with patients, which will definitely hamper patient care. Also, like what has been mentioned by UltimaOnline, a huge proportion of these foreign doctors is from the neighbouring developing countries so it is fairly logical to say that their medical education is probably not as good as the ones locally or in the western countries.

On paper, it would definitely seem like these foreign doctors have improved the shortages of doctors. But in actuality, has the standard of healthcare improved? Things can look so good only on paper and one can clearly see the standard of healthcare by visiting one of the government hospitals or polyclinics. I don't really go to the hospitals locally but like many others, I do have relatives that often have medical appointments etc and their experiences with the government hospitals were largely negative, which confuses me because our local universities are supposed to be world class but it doesn't seem to translate to world class patient care. Either that or we singaporeans just love complaining.

On the other hand, the healthcare demand can be managed more adequately as well. There really is no point in making appointments with a specialist for every small symptom happening in your body, GPs can do this in addition to the regular flu and cold stuff everyone thinks they are only capable of treating. Just because healthcare has become much cheaper for the elderly population, it is quite inevitable for some of them to abuse that. Consequently, it worsens the shortage.

Anw, back to topic. Entering a med school is probably as tough as or tougher than passing med school. Having more med school places would probably not vastly improve the pitiable tragedy of rejecting altruistic people from becoming doctors. That said, it might be a blessing in disguise.

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Old 24th November 2015, 01:36 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by Matsuri View Post
It is much cheaper to employ a foreign trained doctor than to train someone starting from medical school.

Objectively speaking, it is probably wiser to limit med school intake and then employ foreign doctors to fill in the shortage than to have too many medical schools, producing too many junior doctors and not having enough training positions e.g. housemanship, specialisation and even jobs for them.

Subjectively speaking, healthcare services *should* never be about chasing numbers and hitting KPIs. It *should* always be about the patients. Foreign doctors may not be able to communicate fluently with patients, which will definitely hamper patient care. Also, like what has been mentioned by UltimaOnline, a huge proportion of these foreign doctors is from the neighbouring developing countries so it is fairly logical to say that their medical education is probably not as good as the ones locally or in the western countries.

On paper, it would definitely seem like these foreign doctors have improved the shortages of doctors. But in actuality, has the standard of healthcare improved? Things can look so good only on paper and one can clearly see the standard of healthcare by visiting one of the government hospitals or polyclinics. I don't really go to the hospitals locally but like many others, I do have relatives that often have medical appointments etc and their experiences with the government hospitals were largely negative, which confuses me because our local universities are supposed to be world class but it doesn't seem to translate to world class patient care. Either that or we singaporeans just love complaining.

On the other hand, the healthcare demand can be managed more adequately as well. There really is no point in making appointments with a specialist for every small symptom happening in your body, GPs can do this in addition to the regular flu and cold stuff everyone thinks they are only capable of treating. Just because healthcare has become much cheaper for the elderly population, it is quite inevitable for some of them to abuse that. Consequently, it worsens the shortage.

Anw, back to topic. Entering a med school is probably as tough as or tougher than passing med school. Having more med school places would probably not vastly improve the pitiable tragedy of rejecting altruistic people from becoming doctors. That said, it might be a blessing in disguise.
Isn't it the choice of our own doctors to work abroad too?

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Old 24th November 2015, 06:38 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

I will be amongst the group of fellow local doctors in the ageing population saga.
That being said,I myself,have to possibly consider postgraduate route in overseas university prior to my graduation.

Duke-Nus? I am prepared to take my passion abroad should,I fail to get in.A large proportion of the med students(50+%) are made up of foreigners,as well as,foreign graduate local students.

Anyway,I don't mind if foreign doctors work in Singapore.However,are they just passionate about the patients here or salary only?

Of course,the above question is not limited to the scope of foreign trained doctors but also Singaporeans.
More Singaporeans are entering private care and lesser in public healthcare.Although,that has shown to improve over the recent years
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/...g/1780838.html

So I don't believe in pinpointing others and calling the kettle black.Clearly,I was still amazed when I came across the article on the high drop-out rate of medical students to registars in our neighbouring country,Malaysia.There was a large fall-out rate due to their inexperience of communicating in english.Don't you find that quite perculiar,you spend 6 years of your life to leave the career because of english
http://www.themalaymailonline.com/ma...sh-report-says


Last edited by orbital radius; 25th November 2015 at 05:55 AM.
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Old 24th November 2015, 08:16 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by UltimaOnline View Post
See, this here, pisses me off.

Every year, due to the ill-conceived and unjustly small number of places available in local Medical schools, many hundreds of Singapore students (who perform better academically and thus are better qualified than many foreigners who get to study Medicine in their own countries with much larger Med school intakes), many with straight As, are forced to spend a million dollars (with some parents going into serious debt or selling their homes to support their son/daughter's aspirations) to study Medicine overseas.

And most of these Singaporeans do succeed in completing their medical degrees from Universities and medical schools recognized by Singapore Medical Council (SMC). Some of these overseas Med schools and Universities are even more reputable and internationally recognized than local Med schools.

So this proves it's not truly a matter of prudently restricting local Med school student intake for the sake of quality control, but more actually a matter of ill-conceived and maladjusted education policies resulting in overly small local Med school intakes, resulting in a critical shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, in turn resulting in thousands of foreigners (some with dubious academic performance, medical training and professional qualifications) being imported in to meet Singapore's needs.

How would you feel if you were one of many such hundreds of Singaporeans every year, perform better (eg. straight As) than many of the foreigners imported in to meet the shortage, and thus feel you're more deserving but are nonetheless turned away from local Med schools, only because of the overly small intake of students for local Med schools.

Which leaves you with 2 choices : either struggle to borrow a million dollars to receive a Medical school education overseas recognized by SMC, or give up on your lifelong aspirations to serve society as a doctor. While every year, you see/hear the local media announce, "Shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, foreign doctors imported in to meet Singapore's needs".


S'pore sees a rise in foreign doctors

More than a quarter of the doctors in the public healthcare sector are foreigners.

At the end of last year, public hospitals and polyclinics had more than 2,100 foreign doctors in their employ and the number continues to grow as Singapore faces a shortage of trained medical staff.

Full article :
http://mypaper.sg/top-stories/spore-...ctors-20151123
They need save money and so hire cheaper manpower from other countries lor

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Old 25th November 2015, 05:21 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by UltimaOnline View Post
See, this here, pisses me off.

Every year, due to the ill-conceived and unjustly small number of places available in local Medical schools, many hundreds of Singapore students (who perform better academically and thus are better qualified than many foreigners who get to study Medicine in their own countries with much larger Med school intakes), many with straight As, are forced to spend a million dollars (with some parents going into serious debt or selling their homes to support their son/daughter's aspirations) to study Medicine overseas.

And most of these Singaporeans do succeed in completing their medical degrees from Universities and medical schools recognized by Singapore Medical Council (SMC). Some of these overseas Med schools and Universities are even more reputable and internationally recognized than local Med schools.

So this proves it's not truly a matter of prudently restricting local Med school student intake for the sake of quality control, but more actually a matter of ill-conceived and maladjusted education policies resulting in overly small local Med school intakes, resulting in a critical shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, in turn resulting in thousands of foreigners (some with dubious academic performance, medical training and professional qualifications) being imported in to meet Singapore's needs.

How would you feel if you were one of many such hundreds of Singaporeans every year, perform better (eg. straight As) than many of the foreigners imported in to meet the shortage, and thus feel you're more deserving but are nonetheless turned away from local Med schools, only because of the overly small intake of students for local Med schools.

Which leaves you with 2 choices : either struggle to borrow a million dollars to receive a Medical school education overseas recognized by SMC, or give up on your lifelong aspirations to serve society as a doctor. While every year, you see/hear the local media announce, "Shortage of medical doctors in Singapore, foreign doctors imported in to meet Singapore's needs".


S'pore sees a rise in foreign doctors

More than a quarter of the doctors in the public healthcare sector are foreigners.

At the end of last year, public hospitals and polyclinics had more than 2,100 foreign doctors in their employ and the number continues to grow as Singapore faces a shortage of trained medical staff.

Full article :
http://mypaper.sg/top-stories/spore-...ctors-20151123
I can almost feel your anger and dissatisfaction, Ultima :O

Having been rejected from med school on several occasions before finally (thankfully) getting a spot, I can confirm the extremely difficult nature of entry into med school (locally and overseas).

You are right in that there are no shortage of highly capable students applying to local med schools. I remember my prof telling us that the point difference (used in selection process) between the 300th person (selected to join Nus medicine) and the 301st person (rejected from Nus medicine) is about 0.01. While the number seems rather arbitrary, I think we can appreciate that the capability (?) gap between the last person to be accepted and the first person to be rejected is actually VERY narrow. Hence, the admissions team might have to reject candidates arbitrarily on a very narrow margin at some point.

I believe that although the quality of students is not an issue, it is the quality of teaching that is going to be affected should the intake for local med schools (NUS med for example) expand. For example, the lecture theatres in medicine buildings have a capacity of about 300 (for a cohort of 300 students) and tutorial groups consist of about 7 students attached to 1 tutor/mentor. This student-faculty ratio provides a conducive and intimate setting for learning, IMHO. Adding 1, 2, 3, nth no. of students would distort this ratio.

In other words, the current intake in NUS medicine have reached its steady-state equilibrium at the current given capacity. The LKCMedicine, however, is still expanding and hence able to accommodate added increase in number of students per intake. Hence their vision to increase the no. of students by about 50 per year until the maximum of 150 per year in a few years' time. However, I believe this is still a low upper limit and I agree with you it could be the result of poor foresight.

Hence a solution to meet the increasing current healthcare needs is to employ more foreign doctors. They are already 'trained' and cheaper than training a fresh local undergrad (where MOH has to subsidise ~SGD $600k per student). However, the next set of problems would be the competency of aforementioned employed foreign doctors.

From what I understand, foreign doctors (or foreign-trained local doctors) are given only temporary registration to work here as a doctor. Only after a few years and when their record is clean can they be given full registration. This would probably help to sieve out incompetent foreign doctors so that they do not harm patients. The efficiency of such method is debatable though. And I also understand that senior doctors are given consultant-ship easily when they register with a post-grad degree/diploma in medicine. The idea is that such post-graduate certifications prove that a doctor is competent in their chosen field, benchmarked against national/international standards.


Last edited by Drbiology; 25th November 2015 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 25th November 2015, 05:35 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by orbital radius View Post
I will be amongst the group of fellow local doctors in the ageing population saga.
That being said,I myself,have to possibly consider postgraduate route in overseas university prior to my graduation.

Duke-Nus? I am prepared to take my passion abroad should,I fail to get in.A large proportion of the med students(50+%) are made up of foreigners,as well as,foreign graduate local students.

Anyway,I don't mind if foreign doctors work in Singapore.However,are they just passionate about the patients here or salary only?

Of course,the above question is not limited to the scope of foreign trained doctors but also Singaporeans.
More Singaporeans are entering private care and lesser in public healthcare.
(Will attached a source when I am home)

So I don't believe in pinpointing others and calling the kettle black.Clearly,I was still amazed when I came across the article on the high drop-out rate of medical students to registars in our neighbouring country,Malaysia.There was a large fall-out rate due to their inexperience of communicating in english.Don't you find that quite perculiar,you spend 6 years of your life to leave the career because of english(will attach a source later)
All the best Orbital! PG route into medicine is not easy, but you seemed quite passionate and I'm sure you will do fine

While it is true that more local doctors are joining the private sector, we cannot jump too quickly into labelling this as a 'calling the kettle black' phenomenon. The private and public sectors complement each other in Singapore. Where the public sector fails, the private sector takes over. Not every doctor joining the private sector does so to chase after affluence. A huge reason is actually the greater flexibility accorded to private sector versus public sector employment. Think greater time accorded to get acquainted with patients and do a more thorough assessment of their health. Also, private sector allows doctors to exercise their due consideration and autonomy when charging patients for the services rendered. For patients with financial difficulties for example, the private sector doctor can choose to charge a lower rate to help the patient cope financially. This cannot be done in the public sector where the rates are pre-determined by the respective institutions.

Having said that, a complete void of local doctors from the public sector would be disastrous. Balance has to be achieved and proper regulatory bodies have to ensure that there is no significant inflow and outflow of doctors to and from the public sector.


Last edited by Drbiology; 25th November 2015 at 05:36 AM.
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Old 26th November 2015, 01:14 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by Drbiology View Post
All the best Orbital! PG route into medicine is not easy, but you seemed quite passionate and I'm sure you will do fine

While it is true that more local doctors are joining the private sector, we cannot jump too quickly into labelling this as a 'calling the kettle black' phenomenon. The private and public sectors complement each other in Singapore. Where the public sector fails, the private sector takes over. Not every doctor joining the private sector does so to chase after affluence. A huge reason is actually the greater flexibility accorded to private sector versus public sector employment. Think greater time accorded to get acquainted with patients and do a more thorough assessment of their health. Also, private sector allows doctors to exercise their due consideration and autonomy when charging patients for the services rendered. For patients with financial difficulties for example, the private sector doctor can choose to charge a lower rate to help the patient cope financially. This cannot be done in the public sector where the rates are pre-determined by the respective institutions.

Having said that, a complete void of local doctors from the public sector would be disastrous. Balance has to be achieved and proper regulatory bodies have to ensure that there is no significant inflow and outflow of doctors to and from the public sector.
i think Singaporeans would have a hard time to take up this career as a doctor.with so many competitions,who will dare to take up such work?

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Old 26th November 2015, 07:36 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BeautyConscious View Post
i think Singaporeans would have a hard time to take up this career as a doctor.with so many competitions,who will dare to take up such work?
That's why passion really gets you there at the end of the day.

I was speaking to a potential med student from ntu ,who is currently serving his NS.He told me you can choose the short/long route,but I am sure you will definitely become a doctor,with your zeal.

At the end of the day,it's pure conviction to sacrifice what you feel is less important to go for this career.Nothing wrong about that,but if you really want it,you got to fight for it

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Old 26th November 2015, 07:53 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by orbital radius View Post
That's why passion really gets you there at the end of the day.

I was speaking to a potential med student from ntu ,who is currently serving his NS.He told me you can choose the short/long route,but I am sure you will definitely become a doctor,with your zeal.

At the end of the day,it's pure conviction to sacrifice what you feel is less important to go for this career.Nothing wrong about that,but if you really want it,you got to fight for it
In order to be better than others,it is important that u live for your passion and like it.

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Old 28th November 2015, 10:57 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BeautyConscious View Post
i think Singaporeans would have a hard time to take up this career as a doctor.with so many competitions,who will dare to take up such work?
Straight As students that join the trend of wanting to be entrusted with the most sacred responsibility of saving human lives simply because it is so hard to enter.

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Old 29th November 2015, 01:10 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Re: [Singapore] - Not enough Doctors, so foreigners imported in

Originally Posted by Matsuri View Post
Straight As students that join the trend of wanting to be entrusted with the most sacred responsibility of saving human lives simply because it is so hard to enter.
getting As is just the theory part.working is totally a different thing afterall..we cannot just based on theory results to determine how good he or she is.

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