[winebuff]

Hey guys I am looking to invest in some en premier wines like Mouton Rosthchild, Chateau Montrose and Chateau Leoville.

Please share with me some views in the forum thread here: Singapore Wine Community

[monkeybusiness]

Originally Posted by winebuff

Hey guys I am looking to invest in some en premier wines like Mouton Rosthchild, Chateau Montrose and Chateau Leoville.

Please share with me some views in the forum thread here: Singapore Wine Community

hey, that's a nice forum
thanks for the recommendations..
i only know that 2007 vintage is not considered as a good vintage. It's labelled as drinker's vintage..lol

[winebuff]

ya... I only realized that recently.... But i heard that the 2005 vintage is going to be released soon. So i doubt it make sense to invest in 2005....maybe I wait for 2008...

[monkeybusiness]

Originally Posted by winebuff

ya... I only realized that recently.... But i heard that the 2005 vintage is going to be released soon. So i doubt it make sense to invest in 2005....maybe I wait for 2008...

mind sharing what wines have you bought so far in your portfolio?
I only have an "en premier" portfolio of Chateu Lafite Rothschild 2006.

Personally, I actually prefer the "en Premier" scheme, rather than those that require a holding
period of 3 to 5 years... I guess it's because since this is a new form of investment for me, therefore I am more careful with my investment, rather than to lock up with such a long time frame.

[ratsalad]

All these interesting discussions about wine investments got me thinking a little... so I thought I'll give some of my opinions too.

Just a brief background of myself, I just returned from Canada where I took a 4 month course on Wine Science... so I think I have some confidence to objectively voice my opinions, although I am sure of course that there are many other people more qualified than I am.

Here are some considerations I think people ought to think about when deciding whether wine is a good investment:

1. Wine vintage - while a good producer (i.e. Chateau Lafite Rothschild) consistently outputs relatively good quality wine compared to other producers, one thing that cannot be controlled is vintage. Vintage is defined as 'a season's yield of wine', and the quality of the yield of grapes in a particular year not only depends on the winemakers' skills... it also depends on the weather - which is variable and cannot be controlled.

While winemakers in certain regions (i.e. USA) are allowed to do whatever they want to the grapes and wine (i.e. irrigation in hot seasons/climates, acidification, chaptalization - adding of sugar to grape must), producers in regions like France (especially high quality wine producing regions like Bordeaux) are not allowed to irrigate their vineyards, chaptalize, acidify, etc - thus the quality of the vintage largely depends on the weather. If you are considering to buy into the current season's wine, then better be careful to make sure that the weather in the vineyards' regions have been good.

In fact, one cannot be sure of the weather's effects on the grapes until after the harvest - if it just happened that near the intended harvest date there had been wet weather... grapes get diluted and quality goes down.

2. Cellaring - Of course, brokers usually have everything covered for you - they will cellar your wine properly and you can sell them when the wine you invested in have aged till they are 'ready for drinking'... when tannins in the wine have matured enough. Since the wine is still changing while it is ageing, one cannot discount the risk of having a wine that is supposedly rated as 98 points at first, being graded lower when reviewers finally uncork them to drink.

Another thing to find out is - are your investments protected against problems such as degradation of wine quality due to improper storage conditions or power outage, etc? I read that bottle breakage is insured against, but how about these other problems?

3. Wine investment marketing - IMHO, wine investment is a fad. Who knows when this fad will blow over? My guess is as good as yours. Recall the dot com bubble sending share prices rocketing before exploding. Wine is pretty much the same concept.

4. Exit strategies - there are so many wine investors out there, and even though the number of rich people buying premium wines to drink are growing, I suspect there are more investors than drinkers - your broker must either have lots of contacts or avenues for you to safely dispose of your investments at the right time and price... or you'll be stuck with a cache of very valuable wine (paper value).

This is the same problem as with postage stamp investments - there are very valuable UK stamps from the 1800s lying around in people's homes but few buyers out there willing to pay valuator prices for them. My dad was a victim of this himself.

5. Reputation/Qualification of your broker - how qualified is your broker/agent in terms of wine knowledge? I suspect that most wine investment salesmen only know as much about wine as they ought to in order to persuade someone to invest. Do they really know how to choose and appreciate 'investment-grade' wine, or are their choices largely based on what rating Robert Parker or Wine Enthusiast gives the wine? Are they armed with Wine MBAs from Bordeaux, or are they regular joes like you and me holding a BSc or BBA, just got into the job 6 months ago and just wanting to etch a living?

I know it's difficult to find someone with the proper knowledge (there are only so many of them out there, and I believe many are purely wine enthusiasts and not in the wine investment business)... but the truth is that if you just want to rely on the convenience of having somebody think out everything for you in terms of your wine investment, then you have to live with the risk that the advice given is potentially just a few basis points more professional (if at all) than an amateur wine lover's.

6. Return vs Risk - Projected returns discussed in this thread ranged from about 8% a year to ? 40% compounded after a few years? Investment amounts range from mid-4 digits to 6 or 7 digits?

Then again, let's revert to the age old saying that if its so profitable, why don't those investment companies/brokers save the good investments for themselves? If they are so sure that they'll earn 40% in 5 years, why should they be content with just earning a commission of 12%? Obviously the risk of holding wine investments is much higher than brokering deals... that they'll choose to earn 12% over 40%!

Well, if I've got $300,000 to spare, and I die die must invest in wine, I will become an investor in a vineyard or winery! Producing and selling wine can be as profitable as plain speculating and less risky, if you do your homework before investing!

Just as good an idea will be to start a wine shop/bar/distribution business - selling wine and wine accessories for all budgets.... that amount is good enough to get a well stocked shop and enough working capital, I think. (PS: If anyone is interested in this idea, you can get me in as a working partner!) Just look at Denise Wine, so many shops in Singapore and Malaysia, and mostly selling average quality wine.

Those are just my honest opinions about wine investment, from what I've learnt in the past 4 months. Feel free to voice your opinions... just to clarify I have no interest in wine investment, nor do I have any vengeance against wine investment companies =)

[junie83]

Did anyone heard of chateau wine investment under projectmedia? The profit is quite high as it guarantee 95% return in 5 yrs and i was told that one of the lady sold her wines after 8 months and the profit is 35%. Wine vintage-Ross Reegan The Enforcer 2007...Too good to believe....

[inle]

Originally Posted by junie83

Did anyone heard of chateau wine investment under projectmedia? The profit is quite high as it guarantee 95% return in 5 yrs and i was told that one of the lady sold her wines after 8 months and the profit is 35%. Wine vintage-Ross Reegan The Enforcer 2007...Too good to believe....

95% per yr????
guaranteed????

tats the best returns n lowest risks instrument i ever come across...

seriously...

[monkeybusiness]

Originally Posted by junie83

Did anyone heard of chateau wine investment under projectmedia? The profit is quite high as it guarantee 95% return in 5 yrs and i was told that one of the lady sold her wines after 8 months and the profit is 35%. Wine vintage-Ross Reegan The Enforcer 2007...Too good to believe....

when something is too good to be true, it's best to stay away.

[inle]

Originally Posted by monkeybusiness

when something is too good to be true, it's best to stay away.

n the person who post the good deal seem to b missin liao...

wonder if anyone care to verify tis????

[hollandboy]

Allow me to share something with u all....

Fine Wine Investment is a simple but POWERFUL way to invest your $$!

It involves buying of wines at a lower price & selling it at a higher price once the wines matured or become rarer.

It can earn annual income of 8-10% on your investment.
Tats is probably 4-5 times of wat yr $ earns in the bank each year.

[winebroker]

Hey i am a wine broker too.. can ask me.. also...here below
http://www.sgclub.com/singapore/any_...bts_89737.html

[topace]

Hi, I'm new here, need some help and comment for wine investment.
It's regarding the Ross Reegan The Enforcer 2007 vintage.
Yes I have been to the wine investment talk in Park Mall just recently.

They indeed promised 95% return (yes in black and white) by March 2009.
$790 per bottle but i need to get min 30 bottles. I need 24 hours to think abt it but the manager wanted me to use 3 credit cards to pay the $23700 dollars.
In the end the manager is quite mad and said i am not a genuine buyer as i cannot make a decision then and need 24 hours. So i did not get from them but they are very convincing.

1st would a 2007 vintage cost that much per bottle ($790)?
2nd i dont believe in promised returns but they say they control the whole batch of wines and they have ready buyers. is this possible?
3rd is there any association that i can report to help other people falling into such hard sell and convincing tactics?

thanks for any feedback.

[monkeybusiness]

hi,
i have not heard of this label before...most probably i am still quite new to wine investment. However, from what i have read and heard, 2007 vintage is not a really good vintage and it is sometimes called the "drinker's vintage".

[jumper]

Originally Posted by topace

Hi, I'm new here, need some help and comment for wine investment.
It's regarding the Ross Reegan The Enforcer 2007 vintage.
Yes I have been to the wine investment talk in Park Mall just recently.

They indeed promised 95% return (yes in black and white) by March 2009.
$790 per bottle but i need to get min 30 bottles. I need 24 hours to think abt it but the manager wanted me to use 3 credit cards to pay the $23700 dollars.
In the end the manager is quite mad and said i am not a genuine buyer as i cannot make a decision then and need 24 hours. So i did not get from them but they are very convincing.

1st would a 2007 vintage cost that much per bottle ($790)?
2nd i dont believe in promised returns but they say they control the whole batch of wines and they have ready buyers. is this possible?
3rd is there any association that i can report to help other people falling into such hard sell and convincing tactics?

thanks for any feedback.

Take out business directory, look for all the wine shops and merchants, than call them and say you have 30 bottles of this wines and would like to sell them. Ask them how much they are worth.

You will be glad that you did not part with your hard earn money to these clowns.
There are only a handful of French Bordeaux and Burgundy that are worth investing and they dont sell for $790 per bottle, more like few thousands dollar a bottle.

And 95% return in a year? These guys could solve the global financial crisis with such brilliant returns!

[jumper]

Been told by some wine investors recently that they are having problem liquidating their wines, both in the Aussie as well as the French wines. Some had been waiting for more than 8 months and yet can't find buyers to sell to.

This does not come as a surprise. So much for "no correlation" with the financial market. Its all hogwash. When the market collapse, who's got money left to buy overpriced wines to drink?

Getting into an investment is easy, you just give them your money. Getting your money back from them is the challenging part. All the paper profit means nothing if you can't convert it to cold hard cash in times of need.

[Ivan_koh]

Hi guys, i'm new in this forum. Let me self introduce myself, i'm Ivan, (also) a fine wine broker from Universal Assets Group.
I saw this thread recently and realised that someone is flamming here and there.

First of all, I apologize to everyone because i saw someone from my company using some harsh language flamming someone here, hope you guys won't take it to heart. I can see he is trying to create market awareness on fine wine investmen and yet he probably used the wrong direction. Hahaha...

Anyway, from what he recommended in another thread regarding the "guaranteed returns" is true, but being a broker myself, i would like to clarify that "yes, its a guaranteed returns with a certain lock-down period, there is risk in any investments but all is already minimize. What is the risks factor we are looking, 1st; if your wine never arrived singapore, 2nd; improper storage, 3rd; my company ceased operation." As for 1 and 2, there will be insurance coverage for both, as for the 3rd, our company came out a contract from Monterio and Co. lawyer firm to state that the buyer will be holding onto the wines which they brought and the wines will be stored in a 3rd party bonded warehouse. So the buyer have the choice to trade off the wines themself or to consume it."

My company had changed the returns rate slighty higher to "12months 12% fixed returns and 24months 30% returns. Its a simple and yet attractive investment plan to those have no knowledge in selecting a good wine but yet interested in this alterative investment tool. Look, my company still offered the buy-back scheme with a higher returns at this economic crisis to our clients, why, because a good vintage and good rating wines can appreciable its value more than 30% in 2 years.

Note, you do not have the choice to hold on the wines when the contract exipired, you MUST sell the wines back to my company. So you guys no need to worry who will buy your wines.

Always remember, do not put all your eggs into 1 basket, try to spread all your eggs into different basket to balance up your investment portfolio.

Feel free to pm me if anyone of you need information pertaining wine investment.. I don't mind if you would have a good investment lobang for me too..

Wish all of you here have a good investment!!

[jumper]

Originally Posted by Ivan_koh

Hi guys, i'm new in this forum. Let me self introduce myself, i'm Ivan, (also) a fine wine broker from Universal Assets Group.
I saw this thread recently and realised that someone is flamming here and there.

First of all, I apologize to everyone because i saw someone from my company using some harsh language flamming someone here, hope you guys won't take it to heart. I can see he is trying to create market awareness on fine wine investmen and yet he probably used the wrong direction. Hahaha...

Anyway, from what he recommended in another thread regarding the "guaranteed returns" is true, but being a broker myself, i would like to clarify that "yes, its a guaranteed returns with a certain lock-down period, there is risk in any investments but all is already minimize. What is the risks factor we are looking, 1st; if your wine never arrived singapore, 2nd; improper storage, 3rd; my company ceased operation." As for 1 and 2, there will be insurance coverage for both, as for the 3rd, our company came out a contract from Monterio and Co. lawyer firm to state that the buyer will be holding onto the wines which they brought and the wines will be stored in a 3rd party bonded warehouse. So the buyer have the choice to trade off the wines themself or to consume it."

My company had changed the returns rate slighty higher to "12months 12% fixed returns and 24months 30% returns. Its a simple and yet attractive investment plan to those have no knowledge in selecting a good wine but yet interested in this alterative investment tool. Look, my company still offered the buy-back scheme with a higher returns at this economic crisis to our clients, why, because a good vintage and good rating wines can appreciable its value more than 30% in 2 years.

Note, you do not have the choice to hold on the wines when the contract exipired, you MUST sell the wines back to my company. So you guys no need to worry who will buy your wines.

Always remember, do not put all your eggs into 1 basket, try to spread all your eggs into different basket to balance up your investment portfolio.

Feel free to pm me if anyone of you need information pertaining wine investment.. I don't mind if you would have a good investment lobang for me too..

Wish all of you here have a good investment!!

Your company can secure a corporate loan for less than 5%pa. Why borrow from investors at 12%-30%? Unless the bank not comfortable in giving your firm the loan in which case investors must ask, why?

[Ivan_koh]

Originally Posted by jumper

Your company can secure a corporate loan for less than 5%pa. Why borrow from investors at 12%-30%? Unless the bank not comfortable in giving your firm the loan in which case investors must ask, why?

Hi Jumper, the reason why my company is offering this mandatory buy-back scheme, because we already secured a next ready buyer but this are the en primeur wines which they are not ready to drink in the market due to young age. So my company will be selling those wines to investors and hold for the next 1-2 years before selling back to our next ready buyer, thats why our clients must sell the wines back to us. Let me just ask you 1 question(no offence), what do you think our banks and insurance company do with our FD and saving investment? Do they just keep it or do they used the money to roll? I believe they are doing the same as what my company is doing, so thats why my company and the buyers rather take the money to roll rather than locking the funds up. The most important part is, we been dealing with the negotiants for the past 4 years and thats why they are giving us good price compared to the market, so thats we are able to split higher profit with our clients.

Hope this answer your question..

Cheers..

[jumper]

Originally Posted by Ivan_koh

Hi Jumper, the reason why my company is offering this mandatory buy-back scheme, because we already secured a next ready buyer but this are the en primeur wines which they are not ready to drink in the market due to young age. So my company will be selling those wines to investors and hold for the next 1-2 years before selling back to our next ready buyer, thats why our clients must sell the wines back to us. Let me just ask you 1 question(no offence), what do you think our banks and insurance company do with our FD and saving investment? Do they just keep it or do they used the money to roll? I believe they are doing the same as what my company is doing, so thats why my company and the buyers rather take the money to roll rather than locking the funds up. The most important part is, we been dealing with the negotiants for the past 4 years and thats why they are giving us good price compared to the market, so thats we are able to split higher profit with our clients.

Hope this answer your question..

Cheers..

Your company surely has some very smart genius to bo able to roll funds for a gaurantee return of 12%-30% in 1-2 years! Maybe GIC should hire them.

[Ivan_koh]

Originally Posted by jumper

Your company surely has some very smart genius to bo able to roll funds for a gaurantee return of 12%-30% in 1-2 years! Maybe GIC should hire them.

Hahaha... why should GIC hire them when they are doing the same thing but different products..